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Date: Jul 18, 2012

RE: Open mouth breathing

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Hello Dan,

I just wanted you to clarify Two things for me if you may please.

1) The antibiotic dose can be given with water? what i mean is: the Antibiotic i found is soluble with water, so when i receive the scatt and apply it u said after a week i give her the antibiotic followed by the pro-biotic after 5 days. So is one day or one shot in the drinking water enough? same with the pro biotic?

2) Do u suggest i give all my birds the antibiotic and pro-biotic? "at least one time after i apply the scatt"

Thank u biggrin



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Date: Jul 18, 2012
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Mo very good questions, I would use the antibiotic with water unless it has a dose that can be given directly. As normal remove water late in the day just before they roost and replace with medicated water first thing in the morning. One dose can be enough in some situations but since your case maybe a bit more of a headache to clear then a second dose maybe required. Read the instructions of the antibiotic as it may suggest to place this in for a few days and I would highly recommend to treat as it states. If it is a antibiotic that requires a couple of quick doses then wait for the probiotic till this is finished. When you get your antibiotic let me know what it says and I can help you with what actions can be taken so it will be safe but useful. I only give a probiotic once after a course of antibiotics but since it is very safe to use if you wish you can give more, best on eggs but don't tell Dean he may get upset.
As for the rest of your birds I would highly recommend not using an antibiotic on any bird which doesn't show signs of being I'll, you know how it works so I won't get into it but usage of an antibiotic can make birds immune to its affects if used when not required so when your birds do become sick you'll hinder their chances of getting better. With all medications overuse will lead the parasites to become immune to its effects even with bird workers so using medications only use it on sick birds. With workers I know I stated that parasites become immune to them but one way I counter this is by changing workers after a few times and this way they can't become immune.
You are welcome to give scatt to all your birds this won't matter at all.

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Date: Jul 18, 2012
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Dan you made me laugh, i do not think that i will ever be upset with you because, i believe you as a great breeder and i trust what you do .(I hope you feel better now..Lol biggrin) .

I never used Antibiotic on my canaries but i believe that your way is correct and i may use it if i found any canary will not recover after Scatt treatment .  

 

 



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Date: Jul 18, 2012
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Thank you my friend, i will let you know what is going on as soon as i receive the Scatt.

Thank you man,



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The combination of DEAN and DAN is a deadly stroke hahahahah

keep it up my friends, ur both great



-- Edited by Mido76 on Wednesday 18th of July 2012 03:59:23 AM

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Date: Jul 18, 2012
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Thanks Mo and Dean
Dean like you I never had to use antibiotics and only within the 10 years have I had a need for it especially with finches as they are prone to wide variety of diseases. I'm glad that I have learnt this side to bird keeping as it can be very hard and distressing when faced with a sick bird, but believe me everyone that anyone can learn this area also especially if I can. As I have said once to a friend who also was worried about using antibiotics that they can be your friend if used correctly. The way that I learned how to use this combination of meds was through a respectable avian vet and with a good talk we did come to the conclusion that this method will work and the bird will be fine but it all comes down to what antibiotic is given and how frequently it should be. I hope Dean that you never have to use an antibiotic which means that your birds are strong enough to fight the problem but with me I go through so many birds that some are bound to be sick and I have even had birds go through quarantine and produce symptoms weeks after being placed in my aviery or breeding cages but once I eliminate the underlying issues they are problem free.

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Thanks Dan , i understood what you meant , If the breeder depend only on his own blood line and not bringing a strange canaries from time to time will be the correct key to use .

 I started with 10 great canary pairs, i bred them and made sure non of them are related until they became almost 200 canaries in this point i did not sell any yet,  then i started filtering them until i came up with only the best 40 pairs you can ever find.

The truth and nothing but the truth regarding what do i do to keep my canaries healthy and i believe it is the key .

1) I do not bring in any strange canaries even if they wear giving to me for free .

2) Any canary will not respond to the medication  has to go now, i do not sell him but i will say God name then cut his head off. 

Any bald canary for no longer than 3 months if does not respond to the constant care provided i will let him go too . 

Any young will born week and stay week i will let him go too .

I hate to do it that way, but a sick canary that refused to recover and been around the healthy canaries will cause more and more problems. 

     



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Date: Jul 18, 2012
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Sad but true



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Date: Jul 18, 2012
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untitled.jpgVery true Dean and sad to say but I have the same attitude when breeding stock. I will only keep good stock we this is how I can say my birds are good. Weak birds will be fixed to as best as possible but if they still aren't right after a few goes well they will see their maker before I do. Over many years of breeding I haven't have to step in very often but I will only to a degree. I have given up trying to hand rear young as this took alot of my time and especially with a young son it gets even harder. Over the past two years with finches I have let nature take its course, young thrown will be placed back in nest and young that don't get to a perch with the rest of its family will perish, I know that a lot of people will disagree and argue that I should help out but this years young have dine better and have been stronger, meds this year for flock has only been 2 doses of wormer and the only sick birds I've had have been 5 gouldians 1 case of ASM and 4 eggbound hens and a sick painted juvenile. I have lost 3 canaries all geriatric and due to cold weather while young are big and fat and breeders are in better shape. My belief is if you help weak young survive and try to breed them you'll end up with weak stock that can be prone to weather or diseases. Here is an example of a healthy young Cuban, fledged and 2 days later was up the top of my aviery getting some Sun. Sorry picture jumped to top.



-- Edited by dan78 on Wednesday 18th of July 2012 07:07:48 AM

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I agree with you Dan, well, some times and once a while a great healthy pairs will produce a weak young that will survive and get ready to breed but because i know his history i will not make him breed , so, he will be only giving a way or he has to give up his life to God through me . 

 



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Date: Jul 20, 2012
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This might be a Dumb question but i have to be sure....

When it comes to Humans its not recommended to eat eggs along with antibiotic.

Today i applied scatt to all my birds and a week later i will be applying antibiotic to ONE hen only.

Shall i or shall i not cut off the eggs for her when she takes her dose of antibiotic, and if yes for how long?

Thanks guys for everything



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Date: Jul 20, 2012
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Well Mo I haven't heard anything like that before, must check into that one. If your worried about mixing antibiotics with eggs I would wait till you start the probiotic for their first real egg and she will probably really jump into it too. With antibiotics I will hold off on all greens, vegetables and fruits and all I feed to a sick bird is basic seed till they come good. Why do I do this its simple I have medicated water and I don't want the bird to get moisture from anywhere else but the medicated water so I remove any foods that can hold moisture.

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Date: Jul 20, 2012
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Thanks Dan That was usefull :)



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Date: Sep 5, 2012
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Hello All,

Some of you might have been following up my situation about the open mouth breathing, well here is the update that will combine this post as well as another post "OUT OF BREEDING SEASON".

I have had two canaries showing an open mouth breathing, one Hen who started it and another male that followed. i have treated them with scatt, followed by a two-Five days cycles of antibiotic, then Energy drink then Pro-biotic as advised by Dean and Dan. 21 days after they got better but still showed A LITTLE BIT of open mouth. i decided then to apply ONE drop of scatt AGAIN on those two birds "A Female Timbrado and a Male Dutch Frill" one drop for three consecutive days.

When i was abroad light was supplied for 14 Hrs a days which stimulated two of my hens to lay Eggs again. The persian frill Laid only ONE Egg, but the Timbrado hen which was supposed to be infected with ASM laid 4 eggs, the fourth was 2 Days back.

Yesterday Afternoon when i reached home i placed the Dutch frill Male with the Timbrado Female and kept the four Eggs in the nest, ill kepp them for a week then take them off to give them the chance to mate again.

BUT i noticed today that BOTH of them are having an open mouth breathing again.......

Could their be ANOTHER Reason for an open mouth. other than ASM? pls note that now the temperature is a bit higher than the normal in the canary room but not high enough to make them open their mouth since non of the other canaries are doing so.

Thank you for your time, i hope someone would help



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Date: Sep 6, 2012
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If you have no choice but to keep them i will say treat them only with scatt this time 4 times a month and only for one month and provide them with probiotic twice a week and then let me know what the result will be . If they do not recover after that it means these canaries born with weak immune system and nothing you can do about it, in this case what i will do is i put them to sleep .

Mo... If their aviary is free of dust and you are providing them with green there is no other reason is causing them to keep showing the air sac mites symptom's than they have weak immune system and trust me again nothing you can do about it but to get red of them and try to find a new canaries to replace them .

Sorry my friend for my hard solution but it's the reality  



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You are correct with one thing, all the canaries available here are weak in one way or another.

I noticed that the chicks who are born in my house are MUCH healthier. i will treat them with scatt once a week for 4 weeks then i will let u know the outcome.

Thank u dean for always being there



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Date: Sep 6, 2012
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Mo sorry I dint know anything about this thread hahaha. Now for the serious part, your birds were diagnosed with ASM and a respiratory problem probably due to the ASM, they recovered and now during breeding they once again have started the sake symptoms. Well the only reasons I know that having heavy breathing is 1- ASM 2-respiratory issues 3-egg bound 4-over heating
Now we know that 1+2 was an issue I'm knocking 3 out for your male or you really do have some problems there and 4- you believe not to be an issue. Sorry to say Mo but I think this maybe a reoccurring issue brought back by breeding or is a respiratory problem due to all the dead ASM still left in the body. Your choice but if it is still the sake issue that's reappeared well after treatment they may need to rest till next season. Sorry Mo I would love to have a better solution or option but I don't. Check your hen to make sure she isn't egg bound. I would look qt scatt again but this time an antibiotic won't be needed as you are getting the medication foe the illness n quicker. All the best.

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Dan... 2009 was the most year that i experienced canaries with the Air sac mite's because, at that time i did not know about Scatt and i only used to treat them with Ivermectin which was not helpful at all (wast of money) , those canaries that wear not vaccinated with Scatt at an early age wear always showing the ASM symptoms but, their young's wear treated as soon as they became 45 days old so they never show the ASM symptoms at all before i sold them, I had kept 2 females from the 2009 generation because, i liked them for been the greatest mothers but they wear the only one's that kept showing the ASM symptoms through the years after.

My point is: If a canary was not vaccinated against the ASM at an early age (45 days old) will keep suffering from time to time from these ugly mites to the rest of it's life, Also i noticed when breeding buff feathers with buff or soft feathers will produce young's with weaker immune system and the most canaries will show the ASM symptoms and will not have a good looking and healthy feathers.

So, these canaries Mo have, they wear not vaccinated at an early age and will keep showing the symptoms from time to another . 

That was my experience my friend .



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Hello Dan, nice to hear from u my friend.

Is it possible for a hen which laid 4 eggs to have Egg bound?? i dont think so. the temperature like i said is only a bit above normal maybe the normal but the upper boundary. ill go with the scatt like dean suggested and i had in mind to do exactly as he said. ill treat the chicks at the age of 45 days.

as for letting them rest, i want to let them rest but when i started supplying the light in accordance to the true light in nature, they started laying eggs, especially when i used the 6500K 80CRI. now another hen is laying eggs. im really confused and i dont know whether to let her go for it or take the eggs away. she rested for 3 months.



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Date: Sep 6, 2012
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Dean my friend,

i strongly believe that they were not treated with scatt, and thats why they are showing the symptoms again.

as what i told Dan, that when i started supplying the light as per nature's timings they started laying eggs again, and i dont know whether to keep them or stop them.

can you advice???



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Date: Sep 6, 2012
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Mo a hen can become egg bound with any egg not just the first. Over a period of laying eggs the hens calcium levels become depleted and thus leading to softer shells which are hard to pass. It could also be that one egg could be larger than the rest which would also be harder to pass. Over time the hens muscles in the vent become weak which leads here to have to struggle more to get the egg out. Mo I'm not saying that she is just hoping to find another issue this time.

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Date: Sep 7, 2012
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Dan my friend,

after i read ur comment i went and checked her vent and there is no signs of egg bound. normally a Hen with egg bound would be less active or she might be showing symptoms of sickness fatigue, so far the hen is active so i dont really know



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Date: Sep 15, 2012
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Dean my friend,

I have tried everything .... yes the room is dust free room, i dont supply Green daily but i exchange the green with Broccoli (served on DAILY Basis). i clean the bottom of the cage and change the papers every other day, i clean the cages with Dettol once a weak, i have frozen the seeds and sanitized the water the ONLY and i repeat the ONLY bad thing about the room is that the temperature, it is just a BIT high maybe not exceeding the limit.

i still have 2 canaries with open mouth breathing, the frill is still doing so.

i dont think i will wait for the 4 shots in a month, ill do the other suggestion u said, give them four shots of scatt in four consecutive days i just wanted to ask how many drops if it is for four days One on the neck, or two (Neck and Thigh)?



-- Edited by Mido76 on Saturday 15th of September 2012 11:12:43 PM

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